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RLF's rumours posts with other poster's replies to RLF's rumours posts
17 Aug 2022 17:51:46
SJ
Kerfoot $3.5M
Tor
Bonino $2.05M
Gadjovich RFA
An exchange of pending UFA forwards. Kerfoot should carry more value.
SJ picks up a top 9 forward that adds some speed to their lineup.
Toronto picks up a 3C or possible winger in Bonino and a guy(Gadjovich) I had forgot about but liked when he was younger. Big, physical, great net-front and he can score. Could be a good fit with JT and Willy on the cheap like Bunting. Didn't really get a chance in Van or SJ. Shouldn't take much to re-sign him as he is from Whitby. Opens up cap for the Leafs. If they could only swing a deal for a guy like Peeke after this, they are looking more like a playoff team imo.
1.) 18 Aug 2022 01:02:46
I like it.
SJ is the one team I have never come up with a prop for. I honestly don't know what they're doing. They're in limbo, between rebuild and wanting to make the playoffs.
I think they might go for this and it definitely makes the team better.
2.) 18 Aug 2022 02:18:02
This trade does not clear sufficient cap space to make the downgrade worthwhile.
Kerfoot ($3.5)
Bonino ($2.05)
Savings ($1.45)
Not enough to sign Sandin.
Also, why Bonino?
Leafs don’t need a 3C as we have a much better one in Kampf.
We don’t need 3rd line wingers as we have better ones in Engvall and Jarnkrok.
Yes, Gadjovich was a scorer in junior but the knock against him has always been his skating!
Pass, thanks any ways!
3.) 18 Aug 2022 03:03:32
@WB. At what point did I say it opens cap to sign Sandin? Gad also scored in the A. Yes, the knock was his skating, but it has improved! He is a hitting machine and will stand up for teammates! Why Bonino? Because SJ can't absorb all of Kerfoot's cap hit! Also nothing wrong with having another vet in the room with playoff experience.
4.) 18 Aug 2022 13:42:13
@WB. I have to ask. Did you even really know anything about Gadjovich? Or did you just quickly google him. I also have to ask why you think Kampf is so much better than Bonino?
Bonino is a puck blocking machine, very good defensively, good on the dot and has mutiple seasons with more points than Kampf's last season where they had equal points. Bonino is also pretty solid on the PP and PK.
15 Aug 2022 13:09:45
Cal
Nylander $6.96M
Tor
Andersson $4.55M
Pospisil
Chi
Sandin RFA
Tor
Raddysh $.758M
1.) 15 Aug 2022 18:00:17
I think you could probably get them to add a rudzieka may have spelt it wrong.
2.) 16 Aug 2022 01:49:15
Pospisil is a 173lbs, left shooting center.
Unless a right handed winger is coming back to take Nylander’s spot in the lineup, this trade leaves a huge hole on the right side of Leafs second line.
Yes, Jarnkrok shoots right, but he is a 31 year old, career 3rd line player!
Ruzicka is also left shooting.
Taylor Raddysh, (24 years old) on the other hand is a 6’3”, 200lbs, right wing.
If Sandin (22 years old) does not want to be a Leaf this would be a good exchange of young assets.
3.) 16 Aug 2022 11:35:59
@WB49. I don't understand your first comment when you then admit the second trade brings in the RW you say is necessary to get back. It isn't a one or the other trade post. The two trades are in conjunction with each other.
12 Aug 2022 14:06:02
I've mentioned this guy meny times I know, but to me, Peeke is the guy the Leafs should be targeting. He is 24, big, physical, pretty careful with the puck, PK's, blocks shots, can eat minutes and is on a cheap contract that ends as an RFA. CLB is over the cap, but that's with a 25 man roster. They don't need Sandin or a D coming back.
CLB
Robertson ELC
Holmberg ELC
2023 3rd
Tor
Peeke $.787M
Then ship Holl to the Hawks for a mid pick.
Det
Kerfoot $3.5M
Sandin RFA
Tor
Rasmussen $1.46M
Detroit is weak on LD and Kerfoot adds top 9 where Rasmussen was 3C. Leafs get I guy I have wanted for a while and he will play 2LW. He's big, physical, has some offence and can play C as well when it is time to move JT to the wing. Leafs are now cap compliant. Should have enough cap to improve 4C if needed.
I know I am going to hear that these are overpays from some. My opinion, Leafs have a two year window and if they aren't trading a big 4, they need to overpay to get what they need now and these two additions are young and cost controlled which makes it worth it imo.
Bunting Matthews Marner
Rasmussen JT Nylander
Engvall Kampf Jarnkrok
Aubel-Kubel Audette Anderson
Simmonds
Rielly Peeke
Muzzin Brodie
Gio Liljegren
Benn
1.) 12 Aug 2022 15:58:50
Do you think Columbus sees it as an overpay? I would give that up to acquire him. We definitely need an upgrade on the right side.
2.) 12 Aug 2022 22:28:25
L67. Peeke was a 3rd pair guy until last season. Seems like an overpay to me, but maybe Columbus thinks differently.
3.) 13 Aug 2022 13:38:39
While they may be a slight overpay they may be what’s needed to make them happen.
I have also mentioned Rasmussen in the past along with Svechnikov when he was with the RedWings so I like this target. Big, young, powerful, plays C and LW and has offensive upside.
Peeke offers these same attributes as a RD less the offence at this point.
I feel like Sandin is somewhere else mentally right now so use this asset to get something.
I’m still a little hesitant about Robertson so, if I could replace him with someone else I would try. Abruzzese, for example.
4.) 13 Aug 2022 14:59:56
I think Sandin sees the logjam we have on the left side and wants a guarantee of playing time. I believe he has earned it at this point. If he were a RHD or could play the right side, he'd be signed by now and Holl would be shipped out. I'd make that Peeke deal in a heartbeat, sounds like exactly what we need, especially after losing Lyubushkin, who I'm still upset about.
5.) 13 Aug 2022 19:54:03
Yea, I really wanted Boosh back. It wasn't that he is fantastic or anything, but he brought an element our D needed, he complimented Rielly well, and made it possible to put Brodie with Muzzin and Liljegren with Gio. It is the last two things that are maybe even more Important than his on ice play. Imo.
10 Aug 2022 11:37:35
Carolina will be without Patch for around 6 months. They are not a young team, both goalies UFA at end of season and they now have 5 RD's on the roster with the addition of Burns. Their time is now. So, is it time to go back to a Nylander/Pesce based deal. Both have 2 years left on their term. Carolina needs a top 6 forward and Leafs need a top 4 RD.
Car
Nylander $6.96M
Tor
Pesce $4.025M
Bokk ELC
Carolina gets the scorer and Leafs get the RD they coveted in the past to play with Rielly and a project in Bokk, who has been an underperforming prospect.
Leafs would have to make another move on D with Sandin still unsigned.
1.) 11 Aug 2022 00:57:55
I like it. Even if Pesce costs more, I'll do it one for one.
2.) 12 Aug 2022 01:50:46
Trading Nylander leaves a huge hole at second line right wing.
Dominik Bokk was drafted back in 2018, traded to the Hurricanes and still has not been able to break into the NHL.
Trading Nylander 34 goals - 46 assists - 80 points for a second pairing RHD does not seem like good value.
Certainly not what Leafs could likely receive from another team.
3.) 12 Aug 2022 13:30:13
Leafs also get $2.3M in cap space. I understand Bokk hasn't made the NHL yet, hence my description of him. I said they would still need to make a move or two on D, that move could be for someone to help fill the RW void.
09 Aug 2022 12:24:06
Buf
Nylander $6.96M
Holl $2M
Tor
Jukiharju $2.5M
Peterka ELC
Murray ELC
2023 4th
Buf has the cap space and could use another top 6 forward to compliment heir young guys. Holl gives them a lower RD replacement for Jukiharju. Buffalo has lots of young D as is.
Tor gets a top 4 young on a good contract and a young scoring prospect along with a developing big man and an extra pick. Leafs clear $4.5M in cap space.
Car
Sandin RFA
Robertson ELC
Tor
Necas RFA
2023 3rd(phil)
Carolina could likely afford to sign Sandin easier than Necas. Sandin gives them one more natural LD. Robertson provides future scoring.
Leafs get a young potential scorer in Necas and and extra pick for next draft.
Leafs sign Necas 3X$2.75M
1.) 12 Aug 2022 01:54:26
I am a big fan of Jokiharju a good upgrade over Holl, but neither Peterka nor Murray have even broken into the NHL yet.
Leaves a huge hole in the Leafs lineup at 2nd line right wing.
2.) 12 Aug 2022 13:37:23
They get Necas in the 2nd deal and I was pretty close on what he actually signed for. Necas fills the RW void. Peterka just turned 20 this year and you're worried he hasn't made the NHL yet. As a 19 year old he was a ppg player in the A, same as Nylander was. Murray is a big man and later bloomer. Not uncommon for big men and he is a bottom 6 guy likely anyway.
RLF's banter posts with other poster's replies to RLF's banter posts
02 Aug 2022 16:03:28
Arb hearing dates.
3 targets of mine heading for arbitration that the Leafs should be watching very closely to make an offer on these players if it goes bad or prior to the start of the hearing.
Yakon Trenin Aug 2nd
Lawson Crouse Aug 8th
Keegan Kolesar Aug 10th
I would be thrilled if the Leafs sent Nylander in a deal for Crouse ++ and then used the cap space and other assets to get Trenin(especially) and Kolesar. If they could somehow then manage to get Peeke out of Clb, they would be set (goaltending aside of course).
1.) 02 Aug 2022 21:32:57
Crouse is being overhyped imo. Reminds me of Ritchie. He gets points because someone has to on that dumpster fire of a team.
2.) 02 Aug 2022 23:55:31
@LL. He is better than Ritchie. He can play PP and kill penalties as well. If someone wants to pay big for him no, but he is going to get around $2.5-$3M likely and I am fine with that. Trenin $1.5-$2.25M likely and Kolesar $1M-$1.6M I figure. That is a combined cap hit under what Willy makes and a combined 44 goals, 608 hits, a positive takeaway to giveaway ratio, both Crouse and Trenin PK and all are big men that play with energy and passion.
I take that trade off any day cause that is playoff hockey.
3.) 03 Aug 2022 01:00:24
@RLF I don't dislike Crouse, I just think people are overhyping him.
You see what Ritchie did with the Yotes? One of those situations where I just think someone has to score and it's him. Chychrun to some extent falls into that category for me as well.
4.) 03 Aug 2022 02:38:52
I know what Ritchie did, I posted it on here if you remember. Lol
He also scored with Boston. Could be that the Leafs weren't a fit for Ritchie.
Crouse has only played in Arz, what kind of development were you thinking he would get? New opportunity could be what he needs to be a 20/ 20 guy.
5.) 03 Aug 2022 04:10:25
I do remember and wholeheartedly agreed at the time. I thought the exact same thing.
You and I agree far more often than not, but when it comes to Crouse, we don't.
Why didn't Boston Qualify Ritchie if he was such a monster for them? Because he wasn't amazing.
I can't speak to the future. Crouse could be a 50/ 100 guy on a line with Mathews and Marner, but I don't know. It's all just speculation. I honestly think he's overrated because he and Keller are the only scorers on that team.
Crouse, Chychrun and Keller score. They get the time they need to do so. The second Ritchie was given that opportunity, he did the same.
This reminds me of the people saying "Barrie just didn't fit" I disagreed from the START. He's just a bad defenceman. That's all it is.
Remember Johnson? He looked amazing beside Mathews. Where is he now? He's a joke. Sometimes somebody just looks good in a certain situation. Doesn't mean they are good.
6.) 03 Aug 2022 12:38:30
@LL. We agree on Barrie and Johnsson. I didn't like either and voiced that as well back then.
As for Ritchie, he got an opportunity on the top line in T. O. He couldn't cut it and he kept getting moved down the lineup. He was 3rd line in Arz, but got some PP time, but no PP points. Not sure how he got a better opportunity in Arz that he took advantage of. I didn't say he was a monster at anytime in his career, just that he scored in Boston as well. He also had more than 10 2X with the Ducks. Boston didn't qualify him because that was at least $2M and they didn't want to pay more than that. Dubas did.
As for Crouse, is being a 20/ 20 40pt guy all that hard to believe if he is in the top 6? There is no doubt he is physical and solid defensively. I am not saying he will be a 50/ 50 100pt guy. Like you said, even Johnsson could score with Matthews. Crouse has had 2 25pt seasons with Arz and a 34 pt season. If he was playing with Tavares, he couldn't get 40 pts? Don't see how I am overhyping the guy.
For instance, what about Willy and his 80 pts in Toronto. 40% came from being on the best PP in the League. Are you suggesting he would score more in Arz because he would get a better opportunity on the top line instead of 2nd and 3rd line in T. O? Is he a 100 pt guy in Arz then? Personally, I doubt that he would be and likely ends up back around 60 pts.
But as you said, it is just speculation.
7.) 03 Aug 2022 22:47:42
@RLF I do actually think Willy puts up serious numbers in ARZ. He probably plays 1:30 of every powerplay and he's the go to guy.
He'll be seeing 20+ minutes a night with everyone looking to give him the puck.
I think Crouse probably is 20/ 20 in the top 6, but I think virtually anyone is. As much as I like Bunting, how much of Bunting is Bunting and how much is Mathews and Marner?
8.) 04 Aug 2022 03:07:43
Willy doesn't have the drive to get 100 pts imo.
If you agree Crouse can be a 20/ 20 guy in the top 6, then why did this discussion start? lol.
9.) 04 Aug 2022 04:16:32
Lol. It was less directed towards you, more a general statement.
Chychrun and Crouse are being hyped the same way Barrie was at one point. I just don't see what everyone else does. He's a more physical Kerfoot to me. That's really all I see him as.
If I put my cat on skates and gave him 20 minutes a night with Mathews and Marner, he gets 20/ 20. They can bank some pucks off him. Maybe a few deflections on the PP from Rielly.
10.) 04 Aug 2022 12:59:25
The first wrister Matthews takes that banks in off your cat is the last point your cat gets. I will say sorry for your loss now:)
11.) 04 Aug 2022 13:25:28
Was that cat Emile Francis or Felix Potvin?
26 Jul 2022 13:27:53
The talk about squeezing more out of teams in trades for Nylander based on he is a point producer and on a great contract is a hot topic. Not just on here, but in general. Is Nylander's contract that great though? I have shown many comparables that show, no it isn't.
Fact. Last season, he ranked 301st amongst all skaters in the NHL in cost per point. 60th among right wingers. That's right, 60th!
Out of those 60 RW's, only 12 were on their ELC's. That puts Willy 48th among RW's in cost per point that are not on ELC contracts. And no, there is no player that only played like 10 games or something ahead of him.
BTW, Bunting is 2nd best cost per point amongst LW's. Engvall and Mikheyev both ranked higher than Willy on cost per point (as did other Leafs). Bunting is easily the Leafs best contract.
I bring this up because of those that feel a deal of Nylander for Crouse, McBain and a 2nd is not enough for Nylander. Crouse ranked 40th in LW cost per point. Remove the 9 ELC's and he was 31st. Another target of mine, Trenin, was 15th.
This does not take into account the other intangibles that they don't or do have. Strictly cost per point because it is argued that because of Willy's great contract he holds a very high value.
I stick by my value.
Nylander to ARZ for Crouse, McBain and a 2nd.
1.) 26 Jul 2022 20:41:05
Makes sense what you’re saying but still doesn’t make any of those players better than nylander and they wouldn’t make the leafs better just my opinion and to be fair the leafs can’t use the cap saving now that most of the quality players are gone.
2.) 26 Jul 2022 21:02:44
L1994. I am not saying all those players are better, nor was I trying to insinuate they were. The fact still remains that there are much better value RW's than Nylander. Free agent signings are not the only time you can use cap space I am sure you realize that. Teams have RFA's they don't have cap room for etc. Say you make the Arz deal and now have the cap room to also add a 2nd pair RD or a guy like Necas because the Leafs don't have to send out cap to make the deal work.
Are the Leafs not better with Crouse, Necas and McBain over Nylander alone? I believe the Leafs would be.
3.) 26 Jul 2022 23:51:59
This entire narrative comes from Dubas signing bad contracts. Mathews isn't overpaid, but he only got 5 years which is an issue. JT is overpaid, always has been, because he was a UFA. Marner is definitely overpaid. He was a machine this season, but he still shouldn't be making that much.
When we compare all of them to Nylander, he looks like a bargain.
4.) 27 Jul 2022 12:01:55
@ I agree with that LL. Considering Matthews scored almost twice as many goals as Nylander in less games and for less than double Nylander's pay, shouldn't he be a bargain contract too? lol
I don't know how many times I hear on the sports media (TV or radio) that Nylander's contract is a bargain. I even started to think maybe it was. Then I did some real research and of course it is not.
5.) 27 Jul 2022 22:12:50
@RLF good point lol.
JT is a 30/ 70 kind of guy making 11
Marner is 30/ 90 makes almost 11
Nylander had 34 goals and 80 points making 6.9
In a vacuum, this looks like a steal of a contract. It's casual observers just looking at straight stats.
6.) 28 Jul 2022 01:16:28
@RLF
I have stated previously that we see many things in a similar light but I’m disappointed in how you use this metric.
It’s really quite silly!
Based on your cost per point argument we should try and trade Marner and Matthews whose cost per point are both 25% higher and rank 421 and 412 respectively.
Using this metric we would shy away from McDavid who sits at 366, Hyman at 368, Ovechkin at 383 and others like Kane and Crosby.
We would seek Alex Galchenyuk at 74, Sam Gagner ay 43 and AlexanderBarabonov at 37.
Having said this, I don’t mind your trade but I stick by position that Muzzin is the first player that needs to go. BTW did you look at his cost per point?
7.) 28 Jul 2022 04:01:10
Rsears. I am disappointed you went this direction. I have stated many times that Dubas got had on Matthews and Marner as well. The argument that Nylander's contract is a bargain is what I have issue with. How about Pasta, Teravienen, Ehlers, Fiala, Forsberg etc. All players paid under Willy's $7.5M and performed better, as good or close to for less. That is not including other on ice factors than just points.
Like I have said before, how many teams have won the Cup with a player like Willy in their top 6 taking up cap like he does? Good luck with your research in finding many/ any.
8.) 28 Jul 2022 11:23:16
Rsears. Take a look at how Willy gets his points as well. He feasts off of PP time. 31 of his 80 pts came on the PP. That is 39% of his points.
Matthews 29 of his 106 pts on the PP. Marner 25 of his 97 pts on the PP. Fiala 17 of 85. Pasta 26 of 77. Forsberg 27 of 84. Forsberg 9 of 55. Sid 30 of 84. Ovi 29 of 90. Kane 31 of 92.
Teravainen is the only one who gets a higher share of his points on the PP than Willy. 31 of 65. Of course he doesn't get paid near as much either.
My point is solely on Nylander's contract being "great" and a "bargain". I am just showing facts to support that it is not the bargain people believe it is. Look up how many RW's that cost less per pt than Willy, but still had at least 20 goals. There are 16 RW's not on ELC's that scored at least 20 goals with a lower cost per point than Willy. Those are just the players listed as full time RW's, not even the ones under centre category, but play RW.
It is a false narrative is all I am saying. Nothing to do with Willy's talent. As I said, this doesn't take into account any other factors. But when you add in things like physicality, drive, if they can PK, willing to block shots, hit, whether they make lazy line changes causing odd man rushes against etc, Willy is no bargain. He is a $9M talent that rarely plays like one.
He's like Kessel. It's funny, the Leafs were never winning a Cup with Kessel as a star on the team, yet history has taught Leaf nation nothing I guess because many seem to still think the Leafs can do it with Nylander as a main piece.
9.) 28 Jul 2022 12:24:21
Had you stated he was on a bargain contract at the beginning versus stating not on a great contract I might have chosen not to take this position.
He was 33rd in NHL scoring last year and 83rd in league salary so I think it’s fair to state that he’s a definite bargain.
You state he’s a $9m talent but has a AAV of $6.96m so that alone suggests he’s a bargain.
Nylander, we can agree, is not a consistent player and frustrates fans as much as any player and yes there are other players on bargain contracts (which should not eliminate Nylander) like Patranak whose cost per point is within $500 of Nylander’s!
You state other data for your position on Nylander and they represent better support for your argument than cost per point!
IMO it is a meaningless indicator of talent and should not be used to evaluate talent. And we both know Bunting was a good point producer because of who he played with.
I’m not against moving Nylander and I don’t argue that Nylander could be part of the Leafs solution in getting cap compliant and also fetch a decent return.
I stated I didn’t mind your trade proposal but feel strongly (based on sound judgement that Muzzin should be the first to go) .
Hoping that Muzzin returns to normal play is not a sound rationale reason for retaining him.
He simply is not the physical player he once was; I saw many instances where he was out-muscled and out-battled. Very few players are frightened to come down his side of the ice because his mobility is significantly limited.
It’s time to trade him for any return because the Leafs will have a non-movable asset in the following year.
10.) 28 Jul 2022 17:23:04
Well, if a great contract doesn't relate to what they are paid compared to how they preform, than what does? Isn't that the basis of how contracts are evaluated for great, good, ok, poor etc. I have used the two terms great and bargain synonomously many times.
You are muddying the waters on the comparisons. I have compared Willy to other RW's only. You want to use every players contracts. He does not play centre (rarely I guess), LW, defence or goalie. Plus, I used Nylander's recent year which is his career year. I think that is very fair since he has been on the same contract for a few years where he produced less and therefore cost more per point.
Among RW's Nylander was 14th in ppg and 13th in cap hit. All forwards he was 49th in ppg and 50th on cap hit. Everyone seems to forget that Willy is signed for $7.5M per, his cap hit is less because he held out and his first year was a cap hit over $10M which dropped the remaining years to $6.96M. He was a $10M player the first year of his contract and he stunk that year. At his true $7.5M he would be 34th on cap hit and 49th in ppg on forwards. RW he is 10th cap hit and 14th in ppg.
Now if you take into consideration that most players ahead of him in cap hit are players who have multiple UFA years in their contracts, which are the years that cost the most, it isn't even just getting your money worth in Nylander. When Willy hits UFA status, he is going to be wanting a big raise, If he gets $9M and puts up 80 pts, he would have been 19th in cap hit and 49th in ppg on the forwards list.
I also said this has nothing to do with how good or bad a player he is. Is is strictly about is he on a great contract or not. The fact is he isn't. At best, you could say he is fair value for what he gets paid. I said he is a $9M talent, but rarely uses it. How does that alone suggest a $6.96M cap hit is a bargain? If he doesn't use it, he isn't worth it.
You brought up Bunting and who he plays with helps his points. Since Willy gets about 40% of his points on the PP, you don't think who he plays with helped that total greatly. If Willy was on the 2nd PP unit, I doubt he would have broke 70 pts last season. Would he still be a great contract with 68 pts? That still would have been a career high.
It also had nothing to do with Muzzin or who the Leafs should trade. It was about Willy's perceived value and whether he is on a great/ bargain contract or not.
11.) 28 Jul 2022 21:26:39
Whether Nylander is on a fair contract, bargain contract or great contract we all have our opinions!
But to use cost per point, as you brought up, to support your position is utter nonsense!
There are 175 Centerman ahead of Matthews and McDavid!
12.) 28 Jul 2022 22:57:57
As you said, we all have an opinion and not to take into account production per pay as a major factor in determining a contracts value seems naive or maybe doesn't support a narrative that one has.
Not sure where you are getting your info from, but there are not 175 centreman ahead of McDavid and Matthews on cost per point. Plus McDavid was first and Matthews 3rd in points for centremen. On Value of contract, McKinnon, Lindholm and Barkov for instance would be bargains. McDavid and Matthews do not have bargain contracts nor did I or do you hear people generally say they are. So why are you bringing them up. Or Muzzin and his pts per cost.
To me, you are just coming up with ridiculous rebuttals because you want Muzzin traded and I guess need to support that by discounting factual numbers on Nylander. By the way, your evaluation that Muzzin is basically done is just speculation. The guy was injured all year so how do you expect him to play at his best level. I am not saying he isn't declining, but last I saw in the playoffs, he looked pretty good.
13.) 29 Jul 2022 00:48:31
RLF, I believe you were the one to first bring up cost per point. You stated Nylander was 391 overall and 60th for RWs; I logically used your methodology for others.
I used the same site as you did and simply counted every player who was listed as a C. The ranking I gave was NOT manufactured by me.
I’m sorry you cannot see fit to use your own argument or ridiculous rebuttals, as you call them, with either Matthews or McDavid.
Yes I do feel Muzzin should be traded and yes he was hurt with two concussions and something else. All the more of a reason to find a buyer for him.
Just to be clear I am not opposed to trading Nylander but my preference is to trade Muzzin.
As to speculation it’s based on observation of his year. Yes he had a decent playoff as I have said before which should translate to a good trade time.
Someone has to go, Muzzin is my choice while Nylander is your choice.
I’m sorry you feel offended by my disagreeing with you. You should not take it personally.
14.) 29 Jul 2022 12:33:37
LOL.
I am not offended that you are disagreeing with me. I could care less if you do. What I am doing is trying to explain to you that you are taking this to a place that I did not. Not sure why you keep going to the places you do.
Yes, I brought up cost per point on Nylander based on his trade value because many are saying that he has a greater trade value because he is on a great contract and even the best contract on the Leafs. ie; he is worth more because he is worth more than he is paid/ cap hit.
Go back to my original post and re-read the first paragraph because that is what I was talking about and even said I have shown by using comparables in the past that he isn't worth more than his current contract. I was adding more info to support what I had already said. Nylander is not on a great contract if you take all factors into account.
If I was saying that cost per point is the be all end all as you keep suggesting I am, than since Crouse has a better cost per point, I would have said that Toronto needs to add in a trade based on Nylander and Crouse. Instead I said that based on all factors (contracts, previous trade comparables etc) and now including cost per point, which helps show Nylander's contract is no bargain and therefore does not hold extra value, Nylander for Crouse, McBain and a 2nd is more than fair and I was sticking by my value.
I had also already said that I am not saying the RW's that cost less per point were better than Nylander, but it is a fact that there are other right wingers that offer better value.
It was you had said you were disappointed in how I am using the metric and called my use of cost per point quite silly. Then you brought up Matthews, McDavid etc and said that then we might as well trade Marner and Matthews and get guys like Gagner and Barabonov because they have a better cost per point, which is so far off what I was saying I don't even know how you came up with that as being the conclusion from what I wrote.
Then you ask me If I have looked up Muzzin's cost per point. Why would I, I wasn't talking about Muzzin's value and Muzzin is a defensive d-man, his value is from other factors. Nylander is offence only, he brings nothing else. He doesn't Pk, he isn't physical, he isn't a leader, he isn't good defensively. You pay for offence from Willy. That is what you are paying for. So comparing his offensive production against others in the League per contract value to figure trade value would be a reasonable path to take. Not sure why you don't think so.
I defended my position in my responses to you about how it is relevant for Nylander's value, but for some reason you keep bringing up Matthews, McDavid and how ridiculous you think it is that I used this to support what I was saying about Nylander's value. You also kept bringing up how you still feel Muzzin needs to go first. I said you are muddying the waters to try and prove your own point that I am wrong for using it and you are right for calling it ridiculous and that Muzzin needs to be traded.
The irony is that you say you are fine with my trade of Nylander for Crouse, McBain and a 2nd, which I used the cost per point to back my value being fair. You saying I am offended that you are not agreeing with me is quite rich since your arguments have nothing to do with what I was saying about Willy's value/ trade value. You keep bringing up that you stand by your assessment that Muzzin needs to go. When did I bring up Muzzin that he needed to be in the discussion? Or Matthews or McDavid etc? It was also you who was throwing out the insults from first post. Seems like you are the one offended or angry.
Anyhow, I can't explain it any better than I have or in this post. Draw whatever conclusions you want from what I wrote.
Cheers Rsears.
15.) 29 Jul 2022 18:33:24
Okay you win.
16.) 29 Jul 2022 21:57:20
Nothing to win.
17.) 31 Jul 2022 10:57:14
Screw this cost per point crap. A bargain is if you buy the same item that normally costs x amount of out of pocket dollars but now it cost less than the original x amount of out of pocket dollars.
Nylanders cap value is 6.9 million yet his out of pocket cost is 6 million
That’s the bargain
Real money
As players contracts increase due to there production increasing that cost per point will decrease.
Let’s assume gaudreau and tkachuk produce at same as last season
Tkachuk at 7 cap hit was 67,000. At his 9 salary it jumps to 85,000
On his new deal at 9.5 cap hit it would be 90,000 but his salary is still 9 so back to 85,000
Johnny hockey cap and salary was 6.75 so he had a great 59,000.
On his new deal at 9.75 cap and salary it would be 85,000
Nylander at 6.9 was 86,000 and at his 6 million salary it drops to 75,000. So bargain
Now I’ll also point out that if a team gets a player after his bonus is paid then the salary to the team getting him is much less.
Nylander has a 2.5 bonus already paid so if a team grabs him for 3.5 salary his number now drops to 43,000. I mean it’s not the 16,000 bunting level but it’s still pretty darn good and a bargain for a team paying out of pocket salary owed from this point on in the season
Sorry showed up late for the dance and had to dance with the teacher who felt sorry for this nerdy guy standing all alone
By the way mcdavids number is over 100,000 cost per point but I’d still take a falls view steak over a run down diners steak any day even if it cost quite a bit more. The value in this case becomes my perfectly cooked steak and the experience I’m having while eating.
18.) 31 Jul 2022 14:04:25
@Jdb.
I would agree with your point if cost per point was based on the real money, but it is based on cap hit. it doesnt change when bonuses are paid etc. A team like the Leafs could care less about the real money. It obviously has no value only than comparing what a player takes up toward the cap. I would be shocked if there were no teams using it at all. With all the analytics out there, knowing what you are getting for $7M compared to other teams for that cap hit would seem an obvious thing to look at when all you are paying for is offence from that player.
I respect both yours and Rsears points of view. That said, when the discussion is about Nylander having a great contract and a bargain at $7M cap hit, not sure how it isn't re! event to look at what other players are producing and what they cost the team for that production. Using real money would mean Nylander was pretty bad his first couple years on his contract at $12M and $9M putting up 27 and 59 points would it not?
Just another tool to me when looking at value. by no means the biggest tool, but a tool nonetheless.
19.) 31 Jul 2022 15:15:08
On this site everyone relates all leafs contracts as bargains after bonuses are paid since leafs have money this is them flexing it.
Teams not caring about cap hit bug in money being owed view these money saving contracts as value where teams like the leafs only cate for cap hit value
Thus is we’re are meaning of the value contract differ
Both meanings are right and wrong depending on your interpretation of a value contract
Cheers.
20.) 31 Jul 2022 16:42:30
JDB. I agree with that 100%. It depends on the player/ team/ needs etc on what is more valuable. Nylander's contract has no value to Florida for instance because they need to shed cap. Arz sees value in the cap hit getting them to the floor and real money owed being much lower than cap hit. My value was based on him going to Arz. It would not have been the same if it was Fla where the Leafs would have to be willing to take a bad cap hit back.
Cheers back.
23 Jul 2022 13:39:22
A lot of GMs have made moves to get better. Really good players have been traded. Yet Dubas seems to insist on sticking to his plan with the big 4 even though our goaltending and D are both likely worse than last playoffs team that went out in the 1st round again.
Well done. Well done.
1.) 23 Jul 2022 15:36:21
Are defended probably about the same as last year as for all the big names moving around it’s more to do with the cap I don’t think Florida will be as good next year with that tkachuk trade they moved their best player last year plus there best rhd option look at their blueline.
2.) 24 Jul 2022 01:18:58
I am not just referring to the recent Tkachuk trade. Many teams made moves or cleared cap so they could. Dubas has done. . . ?
3.) 24 Jul 2022 03:28:13
I'm not sure I even call Weegar their 3rd best. He was a great defenceman.
Don't forget, Ekblad (maybe) healthy.
I agree with you here RLF. I don't think you can enter this year with this team and think it goes better. Samsonov may turn out well, who knows. This defence sure isn't doing anyone any favours though.
Once again, who plays beside Rielly? Are we back to Rielly-Brodie? Then we go with Muzzin-Holl? That's not a great top 6 when Murray and Samsonov are your goalies. That's a Carey Price in his prime defence.
4.) 25 Jul 2022 22:22:16
I just got to ask what was so much better from last year compared to this year mikhyev had an ok year still has hands of stone I’m pretty positive that if he wasn’t as fast as he is he wouldn’t be in the league Campbell and mrazek had one of the leagues worst combined save % Spezza being gone hurts the room but he wasn’t that productive so again I fail to see where the downgrade is I think the leafs have a fourth line they can use yea we lost lybushkin but we also get gio for a full year kase was good for a part of the year but was mainly hurt yes the leafs are gambling in net but I don’t feel any worse than I did with Campbell in net.
5.) 26 Jul 2022 07:29:51
Hurting the room is a big deal. I didn't play hockey, but I play baseball. Motivated people do inspiring things. That's why we see players like Gelinas score in multiple series winning situations.
Mikheyev is better than his replacement. Nobody.
Save% during the regular season doesn't mean anything anymore though. We all know it's cup contention. Soup was not the issue the last 2 years, don't we?
Boosh beside Rielly. Who plays top 4 now? Brodie and Muzz are aging, they only do this for so long.
Kase I don't really care about.
Gio played well, but he isn't too 4 at this point.
When did Soup cause the collapse in the last 2 years? I'm not saying he's he's Roy, just that this is not a replacement.
6.) 26 Jul 2022 07:30:26
@L1994 that's my drunken rant for ya, at 3am because I'm awake with the kids lol.
7.) 26 Jul 2022 14:22:52
Not sure I am following your logic on this argument L1994. Spezza had 25 pts in 70 games as a 4th liner. How is that bad value? Campbell had a bad run mid season, but still finished with 2.64GAA and .915sv%. Much better than both Murray and Samsonov. Can't blame the team sv% on Campbell. That's Mrazek and Kallgren's sub .900's.
If Mikheyev wasn't fast he wouldn't be in the League? He has hands of stone is people clinging to the previous season. If you look at his goals per game for his NHL career, he is a 20 goal a season guy and that is including his previous bad season. Remove that season and he has 29 goals and 55 pts in 92 games. That's about 26 goals and 42 pts a season.
We lost Boosh, who allowed Brodie to play with Muzzin and Liljegren/ Sandin to play with Gio. Now what? Brodie with Rielly again. Meaning Muzzin has Lily/ Holl or Sandin playing his wrong side. Not sure how that isn't a big difference.
20 Jul 2022 13:22:00
I could Hornqvist going to Ana and that will be how Fla gets out of their cap jam. Fla will have to add a sweetener, but I could see it happening.
1.) 20 Jul 2022 13:48:36
It is certainly one way for FL to get partially out of cap hell!
I wish the Leafs could help!
Holl and Kerfoot for Montour and Bennett!
LOL.
13 Jul 2022 22:29:50
So Dubas wouldn't re-sign Rubins, but he does get Malgin back? Are you kidding me. Why? Why waste a contract on Malgin!
Looks like NYI and NJ are in a battle for Gaudreau or Kadri. Dubas better be in there offering up Nylander to either of these two. Buffalo is another team that could take on Nylander and send back a good return, but options are getting slim to improve this team. At this point, I see a team that is worse than last year AND do not have the cap space to sign both Engvall and Sandin.
1.) 13 Jul 2022 23:28:20
Holl or Kerfoot are gone very soon. Engvall has arb. rights and you can't let Sandin walk for nothing.
With the history Dubas has with trades I expect Kerfoot+Holl for 7th.
He had to sign Malgin. That's all he has left over from Mason lol.
2.) 13 Jul 2022 23:32:00
I think the leafs took a bit of an loss today only deal I liked was Samsonov while Detroit got a lot better and so did Ottawa those won’t be easy outs.
3.) 13 Jul 2022 23:40:31
So Gaudreau to CLB. NJ especially would likely be very interested in Nylander. Redeem yourself Dubas.
4.) 14 Jul 2022 00:04:22
Go talk to Philly, NYI and NJ right now Dubas. CBJ the dark horse, all 3 looking for a scoring winger.
5.) 14 Jul 2022 09:34:00
They'll have the money, they can go over cap rn and juggle them between minors and NHL all year.
6.) 14 Jul 2022 14:38:29
To me I think dubas tried the bigger tougher gritty guy and it hasn’t worked any better so to me it’s dubas going back to the way he wants to build a team which is small speedy guys.
7.) 14 Jul 2022 15:18:01
@L1994. The D corps during playoffs was the best we have had in years imo. The problem upfront was any size and grit was all bottom 6 players and Mikheyev was about the only one that could make an impact that played with a bit of an edge. We need top 6 guys with size and an edge. Matthews is on an island in that category. Bunting is an agitator, but not that big. Tavares is solid, but not much edge. Marner and Kerfoot are not very big and Nylander has no edge, smooth as a babies bottom.
Dubas didn't REALLY try bigger and grittier because he won't move anyone that makes over $3M on the team to acquire that element that can play at least 3rd line.
8.) 14 Jul 2022 21:51:29
@RLF when I watched those playoffs I think their were many issues in the top 6. The way Mathews and Marner were playing I would have been fine putting Joe Thornton on that line and still had faith that Mathews and Marner take over. Mathews was an absolute machine. He gained so much respect from me for that performance.
As you said though, JT is big, but doesn't use it a lot. Nylander could go down as most fit in the NHL, if he wanted to he could muscle most people off the puck, but doesn't want to. Kerfoot isn't big or gritty.
I have no faith in anything beyond Mathews and Marner when it comes to scoring. 3rd line does what I expect. Bang around a bit, don't give up bad goals and chip in when you can. 4th line plays 6 minutes a game, they aren't the difference maker.
At this point, if you aren't planning on finding another LW for the second line, I'm worried about scoring.
18 Aug 2022 13:42:13
@WB. I have to ask. Did you even really know anything about Gadjovich? Or did you just quickly google him. I also have to ask why you think Kampf is so much better than Bonino?
Bonino is a puck blocking machine, very good defensively, good on the dot and has mutiple seasons with more points than Kampf's last season where they had equal points. Bonino is also pretty solid on the PP and PK.
18 Aug 2022 13:32:33
@WB.
I think I made perfect sense. What are you missing?
You have called Nylander "an elite first line winger". That is different than saying he has elite skills but lacking in other areas. I have said the latter many times, but never the former.
As for the trade. You have often criticized others for offering up Nylander for players similar in age, pedigree and skill to Wahlstrom that have not "come into their own" yet with similar plusses like you have coming back to the Leafs. Now you are saying "like most 22 year olds" when it is your proposal. Normally you say "for a guy who has done nothing at the pro level". He is a guy who puts up points on the PP, but not much 5 on 5. Beauvillier is now 25 and never broken 40 pts. He only had 23 even strength points last season. Only one season of at least 30 EV points. Hardly a 2nd line winger by point standards. Wouldn't just keeping Kerfoot as 2LW who had 53 pts and is cheaper be a better option? Mayfield as a 3RD is an excellent option imo.
This is the same kind of return that others have put up for Nylander that you have come back saying things along the lines of, "A 34 goal, 80 pt elite first line winger for a 3rd pair D, a 2nd/ 3rd line winger and a young guy that has done nothing at the pro level yet! No way! " Even though others deal may also include cap savings which yours doesn't.
Though, when you throw out the deal and even add Sandin who you call a 4/ 5 D-man (better upside than Mayfield) and Robertson, one of the Leafs better prospects, it all makes sense and not the same that you have criticized?
"Nylander alone does not get you 2 - second line wingers and a good, defensive, 3rd pairing defenseman. " Although I agree, how are Wahlstrom and Beau 2nd line wingers at this point? By your own standards you have stated may times, they are not.
"A trade must work for both teams, something most fans on this site fail to recognize as witnessed by the suggestions. " It's one thing to think you are better than most on here, it is another to say it.
I stand by my statement that your proposal is the same kind of proposal created by others that you have heavily criticized. I can't be bothered looking them up, which you would argue are not similar anyway. You obviously don't have to agree with the statement, but you aren't really getting any support from anyone on your deal or explanation of why it is fair either. Maybe because it is a poor deal, or maybe because as you say, most fans on this site fail to recognize a good and fair trade that benefits both teams.
18 Aug 2022 11:55:39
Yea, I don't understand why it always comes down to points on which player is better. Plus-minus can tell us a little though imo. Kerfoot a +19 and Nylander a -9. Leafs were 28 goals to the positive at even strength, 5on4 or 6on5 with Kerfoot on the ice over Nylander. A little glimpse into Willy's lack of D.
That said, without context, using points alone to say who is better has no real value imo.
18 Aug 2022 03:03:32
@WB. At what point did I say it opens cap to sign Sandin? Gad also scored in the A. Yes, the knock was his skating, but it has improved! He is a hitting machine and will stand up for teammates! Why Bonino? Because SJ can't absorb all of Kerfoot's cap hit! Also nothing wrong with having another vet in the room with playoff experience.
18 Aug 2022 02:25:14
Sorry Cloud. I meant that Pittsburgh should be sending picks to the Leafs and not the other way around.
16 Aug 2022 18:17:34
Larsson is solid and the contract reasonable, so there is a lot to like about acquiring him. Why the major hype? I don't know either. He has a full No trade. Seattle likely will ask a big return and they don't have a lot of cap space with only 6 D on the roster as is. So they can't really take on much money.
There are others to target that are more suitable. imo.
12 Aug 2022 02:24:02
Cheers Mph.
06 Aug 2022 12:21:49
I think at that contract awarded, Trenin isn't going anywhere unless you overpay that is pretty much a no brainer for Poile. The only other way to get him on a fair deal is if Trenin wants out due to having to go to Arbitration, which may be possible.
I think it would be Liljegren and a plus if you want Poile's attention on Trenin. Trenin is a beast that could score 20 in the top 6 imo. Nash is a little weak on the RD. Otherwise, I don't see much the Leafs have that they would want/ need.
05 Aug 2022 15:18:24
If the Leafs want to take a cheap 2way deal flyer on a youngish guy who didn't get qualified, I would look at Cotton, Steele or Svechnikov.
05 Aug 2022 14:49:03
That's a tough one from a public perception. Although the jury found him more believable than her, there will always be talk that he got away with it, despite being found not guilty. Especially with all the current hockey Canada allegations.
I feel sorry for the guy, his NHL career has basically been ruined by this. Assuming the jury was correct in their decision and she is lying, I hope someone gives the guy a chance because being falsely accused shouldn't ruin your life, but it still seems to anyway.