13 Oct 2017 03:49:23
Leivo, carrick, komarov to canucks for tanev
Hyman-matthews-nylander
Jvr-kadri-marner
Marleau-bozak-kapanen
Martin-fehr-brown
Rielly-tanev
Gardiner-zaitsev
Borgman-hainsey/polak
Sosh, Moore, Johnson, rychel call ups d rosen, dermott, liljegren
1.) 13 Oct 2017
13 Oct 2017 07:20:54
Sharks: JVR, Bracco
To Leafs: Bergman, True, 2019 1st,2020 2nd
To Pittsburgh: Bozak
To Leafs: BLUGERS, 2018 2nd, 2019 3rd
TO any team Moore, Hainsey, Fehr. for 4-5th rd picks
Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Leivo-Kadri- Brown
Komarov-Marleau-Marner
Martin-True/ Gauthier-Kappy
Reilly Zaitsev
Gardiner Carrick
Borgman Bergman.
2.) 15 Oct 2017
15 Oct 2017 02:13:22
Hi StarLord,
I'm a little confused with your trade proposals. Would you please elaborate why the Leafs would target a guy like Bluegers from the Pittsburg Penguins? He's a 23 year old centre playing in the minors and for the most part, not on any top prospect listing. I did see him as an hounourable mention on NHL. com. Wait, sorry, I just found him 10th on dobberprospects. Scored 7 goals over three years in the AHL.
Then there's Bergman from the Sharks whose ranked somewhere from 8 to out of the top 10 depending on which site you reference. He's scored 6 goals in 127 games in the AHL. Maybe it's because he's a right handed defenceman? Had a decent playoff?
Then Toronto trades off its team depth for mid round picks? Trading those guys does make sense if the Leafs are not making the playoffs but I'm trying to understand how weakening the roster for mid round picks helps the Leafs make the playoffs?
Going the other way is JVR, who is probably one of the Leafs best trade chips and Bracco who was an offensive dynamo in junior. I'm imagining something other than these two minor league players mentioned.
3.) 15 Oct 2017
15 Oct 2017 07:18:34
Ares99R
Blugers- played 4 years at Minnesota State then played 10 games with wilkes in 2015-16 (doesn't qualify as a season :) 2016-17 first full season (54 games) had 34 points; more of a playmaker than a scorer. Good 2-way forward, excels in the dot, excellent vision, plays hard. top 9 potential. Leafs have lots of wingers who will be playing in the bottom 6 that like to shoot the puck.
Bergman has excellent speed, good vison, good hockey sense. Covered for Muller which held his offense back (had 30 points in 16-17). Is a right shot and would benfit from one more season in the AHL. True is a 6-5 center and has tons of upside. plus the first rounder.
Hainsey has no business being on the roster and neither does Moore. I'd keep Fehr for the remainder of the year but that's the extent of it.
JVR and bozak are both awful defensive forwards, Marleau can play center and is an upgrade over bozak in that postion. Marner will make his linemates better and offset the loss.
Bracco has no place on the roster now or in the future, Grundstrom, Johnsson, Korshkov, Kappy and Timashov are all better options. Bracco would be a good fit in Carolina or Columbus.
If you think JVR is going to get you tanev/ or a Hannifin guess again. One year of JVR won't fetch that type of return just like it wouldn't fetch us harmonic.
Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Leivo-Kadri- Brown
Komarov-Marleau-Marner
Martin-Fehr-Kappy
Kappy and Leivo could be swapped, Johnsson could fit into either of those two spots.
Reilly Zaitsev
Gardiner Carrick
Borgman Bergman/ polka/ Rosen.
4.) 16 Oct 2017
16 Oct 2017 03:57:31
StarLord,
While I don't dispute your references to Blueger's talents, he was describe by his GM, Jim Rutherford as a "wait and see" type situation. Bluegar was also similarly mentioned as a top 9 player. But isn't that something the Leafs already boast with a number of players in their system? (i. e. Bracco, Rychel, Leivo, Kapanen, etc. ) . In fact, the majority of the NHL could list players similar to Blueger and say their player has top 9 potential. But here's the catch:
Blueger was a good college player but he has yet to mature his game to the NHL level. Various articles like the one written by CBC analyst Daniel Schwartz, confirm that NHL forwards "peak" by 28 years old. Blueger completed his four years at college and still remains in the minors. The success rate of players in his draft and from the college level's isn't very high either as illustrated in a college hockey study by Nate Ewell. Other articles also support that there is a drop in play at 30. Again, this is just the average as some elite players like Crosby buck the trend. But Crosby isn't the norm.
For better or worse, both JVR and Bozak are proven NHLers, with JVR as a top 6 winger, and Bozak as a top 9 center. Bozak has experience as a number 1 center (miscasted argument aside) and also provides leadership to this team both on and off the ice.
Blueger is also listed further down in the Pens system behind two current centers playing for the main team; Greg McKegg and Carter Rowney. A HERO chart comparison reveals how abysmal McKegg's stats are in comparison to Bozak's, whom, I agree with you on him being a defensive liability. Anyone watching the Montreal game witnessed Bozak's line taking faceoffs only in the offensive zone (and for good reason) . Now if Blueger is ranked lower in the Pens system than McKegg (whom Leaf fans know of) and Rowney, what does that tell you? Perhaps Blueger will find his way into the Pens line up this year.
Blueger isn't even in the top 50 NHL prospects. Why trade for a prospect ranked something like 10th on a teams prospect pool and using a player like Bozak or JVR to acquire? Despite their defensive short comings, both Bozak and JVR should be able to net something better, and if not, then the team keeps these guys to make the playoffs because that is more valuable to the franchise than acquire a player like this. The Leafs are more likely to make the playoffs with players such as JVR and Bozak contributing to the success of this team than to trade them to acquire players who are not even highly ranked in other team's prospect pools.
If you are going to trade JVR, you're asking for the other team's top prospects. You're looking to pry away a Sergachev, a Provorov, a Fabbro like defender with higher upside than what you've listed.
I haven't found the time to examine Borgman and True as closely and I'm really not motivated to, but from what I read online thus far, Borgman wasn't highly ranked either.
The Hainsey signing is not one I will critic simply because it's an area or need that the Leafs tried to address through trade, through the draft and through free agency. I am relieved that they didn't go out and sign a player like Alzner to that long term contract that the Habs did. Your argument on Moore makes no sense either. He is essentially a cheaper version of Boyle who plays a faster game.
Tanev and Hannifin are two players I never spoke of once, and I've stated in other threads that neither Bozak or JVR could be traded straight up for a top 4 defender. Assumptions about Bracco should also be put on hold as he may just prove to be a better winger than some of the guys listed ahead of him.
5.) 16 Oct 2017
16 Oct 2017 03:59:12
What I meant to add in the end was that you may think these are great trades, and perhaps they are, but I also believe if the Leafs are looking to trade both Bozak and JVR, that they aim higher up on the prospect food chains of other teams and ask for a player ranked in a team's top 5.
6.) 17 Oct 2017
17 Oct 2017 03:38:15
Hey Ares99R,
Short and sweet on this one.
"You're looking to pry away a Sergachev, a Provorov, a Fabbro like defender with higher upside than what you've listed. "
Sorry dude I don't think it happens, would I like it to? of course. is it a realistic expectation that a franchise is going to fork over a Mantha, Sergachev, Provorov for less than a year of JVR? no it isn't. at all. and would I still love for it to happen? the answer is still yes.
Would you expect a team to give up a top 50 prospect for less than a year of tyler bozak, no you wouldn't because it's not a realistic expectation.
I like Bleugers, I've watched him play and I think he has the potential to be an nhl player. If a trade like this happens where the leafs get a b prospect and a 2nd rounder for bozak I'd be content.
for the rest of it we disagree, you see it one way I see it another.
7.) 17 Oct 2017
17 Oct 2017 10:15:34
you might like this one a little more Ares99r
JVR, Bracco To Flames
Jankowski, Andersson 2018 2nd To leafs
Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Kappy-Kadri-Marner
Marleau-Jankowski-Brown
Martin-Fehr-Leivo
Komarov.
8.) 17 Oct 2017
17 Oct 2017 18:38:54
StarLord,
What I'm saying is if JVR only gets you the tenth ranked player in another team's prospect pool, then you're holding onto JVR as his value and contribution to the team would be far greater than a b prospect that needs more time to develop and. maybe make the NHL.
I get that JVR isn't going to land the best another team has in their cupboards, but in negotiations, I hope Lou aims high and settles somewhere between the top and where you think they should acquire. The names I threw out to you were an example, like Fabbro for instance, who was ranked 3rd in the Preds pool. We know the Leafs couldn't trade JVR for one of the top 4 defenders on the preds, but that's when you look at the next level; at prospects and see if you can pry one away. I wouldn't go into a deal settling for number 10 or not rated. The Leafs have their share of B prospects.
9.) 17 Oct 2017
17 Oct 2017 18:47:18
To add I think you've misinterpreted my comments about Bozak landing a top 50 player as I'm in agreement with you there about his perceived value around the league. But come trade deadline, some teams overpay for the services of a player like JVR. Perhaps in the right conditions, someone like a JVR goes for more than what he's worth because several teams are bidding for his services. That's when maybe you get something more than what you expected.
10.) 17 Oct 2017
17 Oct 2017 21:59:35
JVR wasn't going to Pittsburgh in my trade he was going to San Jose for Bergman, true 2019 1st and a 2020 2nd. That seems like good value. San Jose is in need of scoring and have the cap space to sign JVR to an extension.
I feel like he and bozak are a detriment to the team. They can't play well enough defensively with arguably one of the most skilled/ competitive wingers in recent memory in the organization. Yeah he (JVR) gets you 60 points but the leafs have two other lines that can do that and are reliable defensively. Kappy, Johnsson are both better defensive players then JVR and Marleau can play center and is better than Bozak in his own zone.
That line is the teams biggest weakness, people blame the defense instead of holding the forwards accountable.
what do you think of the leafs/ flame trade?
11.) 17 Oct 2017
17 Oct 2017 22:01:41
And could you explain your reasoning as to where a guy like Fabbro fits in on the roster now and in the future? I'm curious, as I have different opinions than most regarding the defense.
12.) 18 Oct 2017
18 Oct 2017 06:36:10
StarLord,
You're right, I apologize for mixing up the trades. The JVR one to SJ seems like fair value although I know very little about True. What do you know about him and what do you think he brings to the Leafs?
The Fabbro suggestion was only as a reference point. I'm not married to the idea that the Leafs would need to get him specifically. Would be nice if they could add another quality prospect with potential to their organization.
I'm in total agreement with you on your assessment of JVR and Bozak and alternative options within the organization. I would be curious to see what a player like Kapanen could do as a second line winger.
As for the Flames deal, I'm really not sure. What do you know of Andersson?